Sunday, April 26, 2009

A Failed Challenge

I received an answer a couple of days ago to the challenge I have issued, for anyone to show me another city in the United States, of the same size, which has the same child death rate as Colorady City, Arizona, home of the FLDS.

Here is the resonse to the challenge:

I accept your challenge in regards to explaining the number of children ran over by cars in Colorado City.According to the NTSA the per-capita child pedestrian fatality rate is 1.6 per 100,000. Using their formula the rate for Colorado City is 1.79 per 100,000. Colorado City has a marginally higher rate than the rest of the country.This minute increase can easily be attributed to there being more children in that population than in other areas. For instance you used Lake Havasu so I'll use that population as well. Colorado City has 3.28 times more children age 15 and under than Lake Havasu. With over 300% more children there are going to be more incidences of any nature involving children.I look forward to your reply.

Here is my reply:

Are you telling me that Colorado City, Arizona has more children in it than the entire state of Connecticut? Just to be fair I compared Colorado City to an entire state, which had the same number of deaths, in the same time period.

Also, ma'am, you have failed to meet my challenge by showing me another city in America, of the same size, which mirrors the phenomenon of the Colorado City cemetery, which is over 50% bodies of children.

Nine deaths by non-traffic accidents in the same time period as Connecticut, a state with over 3 million people?

The entire state of Connecticut with a population of 3,405,565 in 2000, had a total number of child deaths, caused by cars in non-traffic accidents, in the same time period [ie being accidentally run/backed over in a driveway] 1990-present of 9, yet they have over 800,000 children under 18 living in their state, while the city of Colorado City, AZ has only 2,782.

This means Connecticut children have an 0.11% chance of being killed in this manner, whereas the children of Colorado City have a 32.35% of dying the same way. One number is minuscule and the other enormous.

Do you honestly think that’s normal? Is your argument the same as the residents of Colorado City, which is that more of their children die because they have more of them?

I’ll tell you the same thing I told a Mohave County Supervisor who used the very same illogical argument, “I can see if you are raising a lot of chickens how you might run over a few here and there. But children? Just because you have more children per household, doesn’t mean you accidentally kill more children. Or, maybe it does.

Maybe I am right and polygamy as a lifestyle is very dangerous to children, because there are too many of them to properly supervise. That means there is, at the very least, some indication of neglectful supervision of the children of polygamy in Colorado City.

Colorado City, Arizona does not have more children than the state of Connecticut, 2,782 is not more than 800,000 no matter how you cut it. Yet there are 800,000 children in Connecticut, raised by single or two-parent families, who are obviously much safer than the 2,782 children in Colorado City, raised in polygamy.

I would very much like to thank you for giving me the idea to contact the NTSA about these odd numbers.

Kindest regards,

k.Dee Ignatin


  1. The reason the death rate in Colorado city is so high is that they murder the babies in pagan rituals then claim they were ran over by cars.
    Good to see you going the extra mile to expose the polygamists baby murdering ways. Also, having too many children makes it more dangerous for the little tykes. That is why there should be a law banning a mother from having more than 4 babies. If she gets pregnant again, she should be given a choice of either abortion or adoption.

  2. Dear Pligfighter,

    That was very uncalled for and I must ad, unwelcome in this blog.

    Your views certainly do not represent mine or anyone else's that I know in the anti-polygamy movement.

    "..there should be a law banning a mother from having more than 4 babies If she gets pregnant again, she should be given a choice of either abortion or adoption"

    Last time I checked, this is America, not Communist China, where such things are normal.

    Do the anti-polygamy movement a favor and stay out of it.

    Or, if like I suspect, you are simply a polygamist desperately trying to make it look like the other side is full of irrational bigots and liars like yourself, be honest about who you are and what you think, or move along.

  3. The main cemetery is in Arizona and the baby cemetery is in Utah. The clinic is in Utah so when a baby dies in order to save costs of moving it to Arizona WE made a cemetery in the state where they passed away. Another thing is that we do not believe in abortions in any way shape or form therefor even if an early term miscarriage occurred it was and is treaded as a rill baby that died (a person) and given a proper burial

  4. kD
    Thanks for taking care of that Pligfighter person, us Anti-pligfighters aught to stick together!

  5. I just love the title of this blog because We really do need to stop all the abuses against those who practice Polygamy.

    Thanks again!

  6. Utah has a bad rate of children being run over by tractors , cars etc. Just in the last week, I've read about 6 different children 3 died when run over by tractor, 2 died in atv accidents, and one 18month old was run over by it's grandmother.
    I would like to ask why Pam Black when her baby was stillborn , why they just wanted to put it in plastic bag and put it in the trash????? She threw such a fit,,, they finally allowed her to bury her child. According to Pam Black, Flds believe a miscarriage or still born baby has no soul, so why bury it.

  7. If you say it, they will come, provided someone is dumb enough (me) to point to it.

    Otherwise, it sorta raises the question of whether or not if you blog in the dark, does anyone see it?

  8. "...if you blog in the dark, does anyone see it?"

    "Some of the world's greatest feats were accomplished by people not smart enough to know they were impossible."

    "Never underestimate the power of a few committed people to change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

  9. And by the way, that graveyard has been there for over fifty (50) years. It didn't just pop up in that last twenty.

  10. Yutthehey,

    I don't think I ever said it had "popped up" in the last twenty years.

    The 9 page chart covers all bodies buried in the area, infant and adult. You're right, some of those go back way over 50 years ago.

    My concern is that in the last 20 years, the numbers of accidental child deaths among the community has increased disproportionately to the general population, and the numbers of children, specifically toddlers, who were reported run over in accidents.

    If having more children per household is an excuse for accidentally killing more children...we have a problem.

  11. Yutthehay,

    You are very correct about the actual location of the cemetery.

    I think maybe after living in the Mohave County area for a few years I picked up the habit of thinking of both cities as one thing. I often catch myself calling it Shortcreek.

    Thanks for helping to keep things correct. I'll leave my mistake up, and stand corrected.

    I also believe what you are saying about how you feel about innocent babies in general. It would take a woman with a cold and dead heart not to grieve for her lost children.

    Motherhood is universally understood, and any psychologist can tell you that the grief a mother feels at the death of her child registers as the most intense emotional loss any human being will ever suffer.

    Men may bury their sons, but women are buried in some part with them.

  12. 9 deaths in the last 20 years is no big deal, when dealing with such small numbers, it could be a statistical flude i.e. bad luck. Here is something to help educate you:

    32.1% of all children killed in the past 5 years were run over in a driveway

    "As vehicles get larger and larger, and Sport Utility Vehicles become more prevalent, the blind spot on vehicles increases. As such, the risk of running over a child in a driveway has increased. According to the Center for Disease Control, vehicle backing accidents resulted in more than 2,700 emergency room treatments between July 2000-June 2001. From January 1-October 21, 2002, there were 349 backover incidents involving children, 104 resulting in death."

    Sorry Boots, we all know you are making a big deal about this in order to furthur incite hatred and revulsion against these people.

  13. "Sorry Boots, we all know you are making a big deal about this in order to furthur incite hatred and revulsion against these people."

    I am making a "big deal" out of this, sir, because I believe it is one. You obviously don't.

    The only hater here is you, because you obviously hate the truth.

    The only thing you have to cling to is "Everyone hates us", which is patently a lie.

    I don't hate anyone. I simply don't want children abused or neglected. If that's hate in your book, oh well.

  14. Last time I checked, this is America, not Communist China, where such things are normal.Boots, your mind is seriously warped and you suffer from schizoprenia. Your buddie Buster Johnson has this to say:

    I think that these people basically are so hard core that they cannot be allowed back into normal society. They need to be allowed to die out completely...Law enforcement should go to every house and say: "Okay - everybody outside the house. Mothers stand with children. Okay, you're the mother and this is your child." And then you get the birth certificates. "You're 36 and this child is 24, so obviously you were 12 - an underage marriage. It looks like you were 15, etc. Somebody did this."
    He is calling for their extermination, also you can't just go door to door requesting dna and birth certificates without a valid warrant based on probabable cause. What he advocates is exactly what Communist China did to the peasants and what Stalin did to the Ukranian Kulaks.

    For your little gang to advocate such actions in the name of "Freedom" is a sick perversion of that work and everything America stands for.
    Personally CPS should be called out to remove you and Buster's children assuming you have any. No child should be permitted to be raised in an environment where genocidal hatred against minority groups, especially in the United States of America, is encouraged and advocated as an admirable value to aspire to. Buster Johnson makes me sick to my stomach.

  15. Boots, I am not FLDS nor am I religious. I live in the Austin area, am agnostic and while I don't share the same theological beliefs as the FLDS, they have the freedom to practice their religion. No that doesn't mean its okay to marry underage girls, but by and large the vast majority of FLDS are innocent of any crime. The crime of polygamy is friggin' joke. I can live with 2 women and have their children-not illegal unless I utter the word "wife". No, its only used against those who are motivated by religious beleifs which directly contrary to the Constitutional protects on freedom of religion.
    If you want to find a bunch of polygamists Boots, visit the Sans Souci or Inquity in Dallas!

    Heck, I used to make fun of fundie christians on various forums before the YFZ raid, it one thing poke fun at a group, another to actually raid their town, steal their children and attempt to exterminate them. Needless to say, I don't mock fundie religious folks anymore.

  16. Boots,

    I'll match you a challenge. I challenge you to stop the blanket accusations and come up with some specifics. If you have any info on somebody "killing" their babies as you say why don't you put up or shut up? I personally have some babies in that cemetary and my wife and I cried together over them. Were you there? Do you know even one detail of the stuation? Do you even know who we are? Have you ever watched me and my wife interact with our children? Are you a medical doctor? Can you explain to me why a woman can have a sonogram one week and the baby appear to be moving fine, growing fine, a vibrant heart beat, and that in a mother who is carrying the baby with loving anticipation of holding the precious bundle in just a few short weeks, and then one day notice that the movement has stopped and she begins to fear that there is a problem and she doesn't have any explanation for it and neither does the doctor? Do you have any children of your own? Or do you just spend your life preying on other peoples children and their parents, trying to paint them in a bad light and abusing them verbally with your fantasies? I think it's a sadistic and perverted crusade you've embarked yourself on, and so I repeat my challenge to you: "If you have specific information on specific incedences then out with it. Otherwise shut your yap and stop your fantasizing!"

  17. If you don't want children abused, then look in your own backyard, you will find plenty of cases of abuse and neglect in the Dallas metro area. Yes, no doubt some polgyamists have abused children...that goes for any community.
    Quit targeting and inciting hatred against a group whose religious values you personally don't like. Come on, this isn't about child abuse, you hate polygamy and want to see them exterminated, the child abuse allegations are a means to an end. You are a walking talking bigot...the very root defintion of the word. Your group would have have been right at home persecuting witches in Salem Ma, or during the Inquisition.

  18. Boots and Buster are classic witch burners! It is mentality like theirs that led to thousands of accused witches being burned at the stake, millions of Chinese murdered by Mao, Millions more by Stalin, still more in Yugoslavia during the '90's, Rwanda, Burundi, you name it. Now the good ol USA has its very own minority group whom it is politically correct to hate, discriminate against, and even physically rough up and perhaps even murder them...all in the name of "freedom" no less!

  19. Buster Johnson is a disgrace to his position.
    A public office holder advocating genocide!
    Worthless POS!

  20. Boots:
    I appreciate your concern of the children. But you are making the same mistake a lot of people are and that is to believe the media too much. I have lived in this town all my life and I know the truth. You on the other hand don't. This graveyard is not what you and the rest of the haters want it to be. I really didn't accuse you of saying anything about when it was started but the media did try to make it sound like it was just in the last twenty years. I just wanted you and everyone else to know the truth. The value of life is very, very, very high in this community. We don’t have children to enslave them, or to hurt or harm them in any way. We refuse to have an aberration even if the baby is deformed. WE DO NOT KILL PEOPLE! We really don’t even believe in being cruel to animals or even to kill them needlessly. Even dogs.

  21. Boots:

    What are we to understand by these statistics? What is your theory?

  22. On Buster,

    “I think that these people basically are so hard core that they cannot be allowed back into normal society.”

    He believes criminals should be imprisoned for breaking the law. That doesn’t make him a genocidal maniac, it makes him a tough on crime conservative. He thinks methamphetamine dealers should go to jail, too. How exactly is that genocidal?

    “They need to be allowed to die out completely..”.
    He believes the same measures the US took towards Utah with this matter should be employed. The LDS agreed to stop the illegal practice of polygamy, and discontinued the practice, earning statehood for themselves in the process. They didn’t take anyone’s concubines from them, they simply allowed the practice to die out. Nobody was ever “exterminated”. There is a huge difference between letting something “die out” and “extermination”. The only thing “exterminated” in this country were the abusive practices of slavery and polygamy.

    Law enforcement should go to every house and say: "Okay - everybody outside the house. Mothers stand with children. Okay, you're the mother and this is your child." And then you get the birth certificates. "You're 36 and this child is 24, so obviously you were 12 - an underage marriage. It looks like you were 15, etc. Somebody did this."

    No criminal wants to be prosecuted, especially those committing sex crimes against children. Statutory rape and Polygamy, are crimes in this country and until someone can convince the Supreme Court they aren’t, well, they are. Anyone interested in enforcing the law would have no problem getting warrants. The problem is that law enforcement in Arizona and Utah are not interested in enforcing the polygamy or statutory rape laws.

    Yes, we definitely believe that people caught breaking the laws in this country should face prosecution for it.

    Nobody has ever once called for the “extermination” of anyone, and you weaken any argument you have by making such ridiculous accusations.

    I know you want us to “hate” you. That would be very convenient for you, but we don’t. We simply believe polygamy is abusive and want the laws in our country against the practice enforced.

  23. What is with the Sheriff sending in his deputies into the towns, pulling over residents left and right, issuing tickets, harassing them? Oh I get it, they are just bad bad people! What other minority group is it perfectly acceptable to just pull them over soley becasue of their religious beliefs, is there a new traffic law banning "driving while plyg"?

    Does anyone want to see photos of a typical "baby killer" family who according to Buster, deserve to be rouned up, family torn apart, shipped off to locations they can be allowed to die off?

    enter the search term "jessop" and you will get 169 photos of evil evil folks who deserve all the hatred and bigotry Boots and Buster can throw at them. I especially like the photos of the girls riding ponies, and the older one doing the equestrian stuff, picnics, and gosh...a rug made into an American Flag-a country that sh!ts on them. Perhaps Boots should pay a visit and explain to them that their lives are terrible, their homes & families are rotten, and they are worthless inbred subhuman wretches.

  24. Boots, so whose door are you going to knock on? On what basis will you establish probable cause that such and such house contains polygamists?
    Also if you find a guy living with 2 women, what if he claims they are his bitch ho's and he's not married to them? Whatcha gonna do? How do you distinguish between evil polygamists and a dude living with multiple women. Also if alleged pligs build separate residences for their "wives" a la big love, then they aren't cohabitating right?

  25. What about all the victims of adultery, do you propose a crackdown against adulterers?

  26. Wicked and evil people always accuse the innocent and righteous of doing just what they do. Who is really killing their babies? The FLDS are Anti abortionists. Abortion is killing and it is MURDER.

  27. I'd like to know is how polygamy can be considered abusive, but adultery is just fine and never prosecuted. Actually, several states still have laws against it -- the most extreme would probably be Michigan, where punishment can be a life sentence. Why don't I hear you screaming about how it's against the LAW, and everyone guilty should be prosecuted to the fullest extent.

    Now here's my challenge for you. Find me the Arizona law specifically against polygamy. It's outlawed in the Arizona Constitution, yes, but there has never been any law made stating what type of offense it is or what the punishment can be. Do you know of anyone tried for polygamy in Arizona? It's always something else -- statutory rape, unlawful cohabitation (that was Utah, though), bigamy, etc.

    Again, why are we not prosecuting adultery wherever it is illegal?

  28. We can't prosecute adultery because of Lawrence vs. Texas.

    Polygamy will go the same way since they are not even legally married and it is merely a dude living with 2 or more women. The "purport to marry" is how the state tries to get around this. However the act of "purporting" violates the 1st amendement covering free speech as it makes uttering or recording the word "wife" a crime, furthurmore to make "religious polygamy" a crime while secular polygamy/polyamory not a crime directly contradicts the 1st amendment freedom of religion clause. That is 2 constitutional violations being violated and according to Scalia, 2 violations is enough declare it unconstitutional.

  29. Sorry (not) that you don't get more support on your own blog, but I recommend you find something -- some sort of hobby -- or crusade that actually benefits humanity. I sure hope you haven't devoted your life to this. What a waste. There are baby birds that fall out of their nests probably every day. Helping is good, but you gotta find something, or someone that needs help.

    As for your challenge: Your first response there by Pligfighter is as believable as anything I've ever read. Why did you reject it? If you can believe Flora, SURELY Pligfighter's explanation should fit right in with your deluded notions.

  30. Xorphshire,

    "'O, that's what troubles me, papa. You want me to live so happy, and never have any pain,--never suffer anything,--not even hear a sad story, when other poor creatures have nothing but pain and sorrow, all their lives;--it seems selfish. I ought to know such things, I ought to feel about them! Such things always sunk into my heart: they went down deep; I've thought and thought about them. Papa, isn't there any way to have all slaves made free?'"

  31. How do you plan to free the "slaves" Boots? Do you think they might put up a fight?
    That is what the Communists did! Stalin didn't invade Eastern Europe, he "liberated" those countries and "freed" them from capitalist "slavery". What a great justification for subjugating another people, just call them slaves, invade and rip their lives apart, pat yourself on the back and call it "liberation".
    How Orwellian!

    “Hell isn't merely paved with good intentions, it is walled and roofed with them”--Adolphus Huxley

  32. "A lot of people out there pay good lip service to the idea of personal freedom … right up to the point that someone tries to do something that they don't personally approve of." -- Neal Boortz

  33. Freeing slaves! Yes, that's a start, and certainly a nobler cause. The only problem is that you're in the wrong century ... or the wrong country. But if you find any, I guarantee you'll be more successful in "rescuing" them.

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  36. Pligfighter,

    Get out of this blog and don't come back. You just got the boot. There is vermin here today alright and it's you. Haters are not welcome here.

  37. Hey, at least he's honest. I think this is how all anti-FLDS crusaders feel. Pligfighter is just open and honest about it.

  38. Xorphshire,

    You can believe anything you like. But I've been involved in this for four years now and have never met, or worked with, scum like that. Nor would I ever agree to work with scum like that. I'm a Jew and I take that sort of hateful speech very seriously.

    People like that will never find quarter in our organization.

    I am still not convinced that he isn't just your little alter ego. If the movement was full of people like that I would have met them by now...and promptly put a boot up their you-know-what.

  39. No, he/she/it is no alter ego of mine.

    But please don't pretend that your "movement" is about rescuing children. No matter how you word it, your motive is explained in one of two ways:

    1) Pligfighter's thoughts and desires are the same as yours and you don't like him (or her) exposing you.

    2) For many years you have secretly wanted to be a polygamous wife and be part of a large family and this blog is your quaint way of making it known.

    Personally, I think it's #2 :)

  40. This cult has been a problem for generations. Flds was never a church, or they made up doctrine as they went along. There was a Very HIGH percentage amoung the 400 children of broken bones, some children less than two yrs old. Now for everyone's information, Babies bones don't break easily, the bones remain fairly soft till the age of 4 or 5. So children this young with broken bones, it happens only ONE way, and it's Child Abuse. Grabbing children up by their arms or legs when angry, throwing them down or into walls.
    I trully believe many who are posting here are as ignorant as stumps!!
    Flds have been proven to lie over and over, including so called accidents that happen within the group.
    Children were killed on the ranch itself because some STupid mother didn't buckle her children in the car seats. Children using heavy industrial equipment when they should of been in school, have gotten hurt badly.
    NO, no one religious or otherwis EVER has a right to practice abusing children. NEVER!

  41. Speaking of ignorant stumps, I can't believe you fell for that silly broken bone myth. No mathematician was needed to prove there was was nothing unusual about the broken bone to child ratio.

    By the way, I'll bet even YOU would lie to a band of kidnappers that were trying to steal and sell your children.

    Amen to your last sentence.

  42. Like I said, the FLDS plygs are worthless people.

  43. Correction: like everyone says,
    Harley, the percentage of those who allegedly had broken bones was less than that of the general population as a whole.
    You and so many others turn the truth upside down again and again, you constantly lie, then make up allegations against them, then when a lie is exposed as such, you make up another lie to cover the previous lie.

  44. We should just kill them all eh? Boots since you a Jew, what about the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, everyone believe them back in the day. How do we know they were forgeries? Can you prove it?

  45. This blog is attracting anti-semites now or trolls. Wow!
    "Wendyjo" reincarnated.

  46. I have compared several websites of documents and affidavits.
    Many here say, Abuses didn't happen in FLDS.
    1. Truth will Prevail, gives lengthy affidavits by children and friends of children of Dan Fischer. (beatings, kicking,bruises)
    These affiadavits of course are by Adults now, who say abuses happened in Dan fischers house as children.
    2. One such person is Carla Jessop. She and a couple of her sisters would go and visit and stay with the fischers at times. Why would Carla Jessop continue to you and stay at Dan Fischer's house if such Horrible abuses were going on?
    3. If true, FLDS just admitted Abuses did go on, and not in just one family.
    4. Documents in Texasflds site, by 3 children talk about Dan Jessop, and how he sexually molested Merrianne Jessop. And how Barbara Jessop threw and kicked a 4 yr old boy in the stomach, and threatened if he told anyone, she would do it again.

    Were there abuses going on in FLDS.
    Lets take a look at the Utah Sex offender List.
    On the list are the following.
    1. Lymen Barlow
    2. Haven Barlow
    3. David Barlow
    4. Jerry Allred
    5. Cameron Allred
    6. Allen John Allred
    7. Jerry Allred
    8. Jack Cooke
    9. Jason William Cook
    10.Robert Merrick Cook
    11.John Ellsworth Cook
    12. Steven Lyle Cook
    13. Merlin Dutson
    14. Ethan Fischer
    15. Dennis Jessop
    16. John Roy Jessop
    17. Marcos Lynn Jessop
    18. Jack Jessop
    19. Warren Jeffs
    20. Christopher Jeffs
    21. Joshua Mackert Johnson
    22. Abraham Leroy Knudson
    23. Benjamin Jeffs
    24. Bruce Chatwin
    25. Moroni Draper
    26. Jason Holm
    27. Rodney Holm
    28. David Legrand Draper
    29. Merlin Samuel Dutson
    30. Michael Dutson
    31. Ethan Fischer
    32. Parley Parker Stubbs
    33. Abraham Leroy Knudson
    34. Brandon David Nielson
    35. Dale E Nielson
    36. Eric Mark Nielson
    37. Bryce M. Nielson
    38. Clint Jeffery Nielson
    39. Darin Nielson
    40. James G. Nielson
    41. Mark Evans Nielson
    42. Michael Nielson
    43. William Nielson
    44. Brent Nielson
    45. Gerald Nielson
    46. John Nielson
    47. Philip Nielson
    48. Tanner MIchael Nielson
    49, Michael Roy Richter
    50. Ephraim Woodruff Steed
    51. Jeffrey Marvin Steed
    52. Joseph Timpson Steed
    53. Rulon Johnson Steed
    54. Derek Lloyd Wayman
    55. Jeremy william Wayman
    56. Winston Fischer

    This is just Utah! In arizona there are more.
    Every one of these men, were convicted of sexual assault with a minor, rape of a child, indecency with a child, rape of a minor, and one Kidnapping charge for one.

    There it is in black in white folks,, look it up for yourself.

  47. Boots,

    The reason you have nearly 50 comments on this post, is because I pointed to it.

    You said;

    "Some of the world's greatest feats were accomplished by people not smart enough to know they were impossible."

    Some of the biggest results are produced when I'm not smart enough to know that if I just don't say anything, no one will notice.